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Another day, another mass shooting in America

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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Racism as an individual's negative feeling without adverse effect, in either direction, is exactly the definition that I donít think is useful. Racism without adverse effect is, in my arrogant and presumptuous opinion, pretty trivial as a social and political problem. Itís just feelings.
    This is essentially my viewpoint. Same goes for sexism.
    "Our work continues, the fight goes on, and the big dreams never die." -- Elizabeth Warren

    Comment


      Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

      Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post
      I stopped trying to limit the use of "racism" to a structural meaning long ago. I still think it's more useful and communicates better, but only if that meaning is by agreement, and it's not.

      But then this is what happens:

      "White men"
      "That's racist (1)"
      "No, it's not racist (2)"
      "Are you saying white men can't be victims of racism (1)?"
      "Racism (2) involves an power differential."

      Or:

      "Racist policing"
      "Are you saying that all policemen are racist?"
      "No, I'm saying that racism is structurally built into police departments"
      "But not all policemen are racists."

      And so on. That's precisely why I make posts that some find intrusive and presumptuous: to try to clarify that the word is being used in different ways.

      I agree up to here.

      Personally, I think the easiest way to clarify communication would be to use one of the other readily available words to describe the individual action/attitude, because it increases clarity without losing communicative value. But again, that doesn't happen without consensus, and I recognize that that consensus ain't going to happen.

      However, I also think the initial "That's racist" is said with full knowledge of the lexical confusion to follow. I also think the response "Racism involves power" is said with equal knowledge of that confusion. That's why my posts have not said, "You're using the word "racist" incorrectly," but "You two are using the word in different ways."

      I don't think your posts have been that even-handed, although you have been more even-handed than others. Along with different, I think you show pretty clearly how you think it should go.

      I do disagree with your first sentence, in that the structural sense of racism does not necessarily describe thoughts or actions common to white people relative to black people. It is foundational to American history, economics, society, education, health and so on, in a way that transcends even the group attitudes of white people towards black. Nor is it a result of the sum of current individual attitudes towards a different race; it's the sum of history.

      I can't believe this is a response to what I wrote. The genesis of the racism may in fact include all that you mention, but it does not transcend the attitudes and institutions that currently exist. Racism lives today in what persists today, which are what I described. Much of it we have left behind. We cannot fix the past, we can only affect today. If we have to fix history, then the entire conversation is moot.


      So I'm not demanding that only one usage of the word is acceptable, and I think that insisting on one or the other completely obscures the actual issue - the result is a debate about the lexical trees, while the structural forest becomes invisible. But my question remains: what's your solution? What words should I be using?

      I think you should use "systematic" when you mean "systematic", and stop denying that other types exist, or are relevant, or part of the conversation. The second part may not apply to you, but it does apply to others in this thread.

      Edit: I’ll also add that the argument that “White people experience racism, too” is not incorrect, but it implies that there is some sort of equivalence or even parallel between the racism experienced by white people and the racism experienced by black people. I reject that entirely, and not just because racism against black people is more common. Because it is systemic, it is a difference of kind, not just degree.

      I reject your assertion of that implication. I have not seen anyone make an argument that remotely parallels that. What I have seen people do is challenge the blanket assertion that discrimination against whites or males is impossible by definition. If you stopped with your unfounded assertion of said implication, and stuck to the "not incorrect", we would have no argument here.
      My responses in bold.
      "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

      Comment


        Originally posted by theDurk View Post
        My responses in bold.
        I said pretty plainly that I have a preference, but canít sell it. Iíve stopped trying to do that.

        As for the genesis, quite seriously: if you think it has only to do with current attitudes of current people, you havenít been paying attention. Again, I think the FHA policies are a clear and easily understood example of how history persists. We canít change history, but itís effects also donít stop if we just say, well, thatís over, nothing to be done now. Itís not over,manís wonít go away by pretending differently. It was done and has to be undone, starting with recognition and acknowledgment. And that only one small but clear example.

        Systemic, not systematic.
        Russian warship, go **** yourself

        Comment


          Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

          Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post
          I said long ago that your statement was correct but trivial. Even that was probably crediting too much, since there was no adverse effect and you didnít actually experience much of anything.
          You can say that about most acts of racism.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Mr Coffee View Post
            You can say that about most acts of racism.
            Itís as if Iíve never said anything. This is exactly why I stopped having this discussion.
            Russian warship, go **** yourself

            Comment


              Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

              Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post
              Itís as if Iíve never said anything. This is exactly why I stopped having this discussion.
              You said the racism I described had no adverse effect and the person didnít actually experience much of anything.

              I'm saying that this is true of most occurrences of racism.

              Do you disagree?

              If you don't want to answer that's fine. Don't be so dramatic.

              Comment


                Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post
                Itís as if Iíve never said anything. This is exactly why I stopped having this discussion.
                Right. Focusing on individual acts only distorts people's perception of how racism works. It's pointless. And the news media is especially guilty in failing to address the institutional and systemic racism that is the real source of racial injustice.

                Comment


                  Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                  Originally posted by Texsahara View Post
                  Right. Focusing on individual acts only distorts people's perception of how racism works. It's pointless. And the news media is especially guilty in failing to address the institutional and systemic racism that is the real source of racial injustice.
                  I don't understand the need for certain people to play gatekeeper on the issue of racism-- deciding what is and what isn't worth discussing. Not only that but determining that people's perception might be distorted--but not theirs. That's pretty arrogant.

                  It's simple-- If you feel it's pointless, don't participate in the discussion.

                  Comment


                    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                    Originally posted by Mr Coffee View Post
                    I don't understand the need for certain people to play gatekeeper on the issue of racism-- deciding what is and what isn't worth discussing. Not only that but determining that people's perception might be distorted--but not theirs. That's pretty arrogant.

                    It's simple-- If you feel it's pointless, don't participate in the discussion.
                    I expressed my opinion. I'll post what I want when I want. The only person that's been telling people how to post is you. Repeatedly. Take off the sheriff hat, Carl. It doesn't make you a sheriff.

                    Comment


                      Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                      Originally posted by Mr Coffee View Post
                      You said the racism I described had no adverse effect and the person didn’t actually experience much of anything.

                      I'm saying that this is true of most occurrences of racism.

                      Do you disagree?

                      If you don't want to answer that's fine. Don't be so dramatic.
                      It's not that I don't want to answer, it's that I've already answered, repeatedly, in this discussion and many others. It makes no impression.

                      Originally posted by Mr Coffee View Post
                      It's simple-- If you feel it's pointless, don't participate in the discussion.
                      Exactly. I'm not being dramatic, I just think it's pointless to talk to a wall.
                      Russian warship, go **** yourself

                      Comment


                        Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                        Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post


                        Exactly. I'm not being dramatic, I just think it's pointless to talk to a wall.
                        You can talk to the rest of us. I think your opinions are interesting and I learn a lot from them. You make me think harder than I want to sometimes but that's probably good.

                        Comment


                          Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                          Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post
                          It's not that I don't want to answer, it's that I've already answered, repeatedly, in this discussion and many others. It makes no impression.

                          Exactly. I'm not being dramatic, I just think it's pointless to talk to a wall.
                          You haven't answered that question because it hasn't been asked before.

                          You're dodging and pretending it's my fault you won't answer. That's weak.

                          Don't answer if you don't want to. It's fine.

                          Comment


                            Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                            Originally posted by Texsahara View Post
                            You can talk to the rest of us. I think your opinions are interesting and I learn a lot from them. You make me think harder than I want to sometimes but that's probably good.
                            Agreed.

                            Comment


                              Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                              Originally posted by Texsahara View Post
                              I expressed my opinion. I'll post what I want when I want. The only person that's been telling people how to post is you. Repeatedly. Take off the sheriff hat, Carl. It doesn't make you a sheriff.
                              Neither does trying to shut down conversation because you feel it's pointless, Fife.

                              Comment


                                Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

                                Originally posted by Mr Coffee View Post
                                Neither does trying to shut down conversation because you feel it's pointless, Fife.
                                That would make sense if it happened. It didn't. You can make as many pointless posts as you want. The only person telling people not to post is you.

                                Comment

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