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    Originally posted by Yankee Tripper View Post

    Reducing the chance of catching the disease in the first place Is exactly what efficacy of the clinical trials is all about. Unless the vaccine has greater than 50% efficacy it doesn’t have a chance at approval.

    for example in clinical trials of 200 people, 100 with vaccine and 100 with placebo if 10 people in placebo get the disease and 2 people in the vaccine group get the disease the vaccine has an 80% efficacy.
    So why aren't we hearing about that? Every source I find talks about the efficacy in terms of hospitalization rates and death rates. And the global and domestic authoritative voices are weasel-wordy about it at best.

    https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-(covid-19)-vaccines?adgroupsurvey={adgroupsurvey}&gclid=CjwKCAjwn8SLBhAyEiwAHNTJbXRvbciFfs-8svKHeZHIN6nundv27xFc2eJqqgzTGAAUP_OkxH52UhoCn1YQAvD_BwE

    Originally posted by World Health Organization
    Vaccination protects you from getting seriously ill and dying from COVID-19. For the first fourteen days after getting a vaccination, you do not have significant levels of protection, then it increases gradually. For a single dose vaccine, immunity will generally occur two weeks after vaccination. For two-dose vaccines, both doses are needed to achieve the highest level of immunity possible.

    While a COVID-19 vaccine will protect you from serious illness and death, we are still learning about the extent to which it keeps you from being infected and passing the virus on to others (transmission). The data that is emerging from countries is showing that the vaccines that are currently in use are protecting against severe disease and hospitalization. However, no vaccine is 100% effective and breakthrough infections are regrettable, but to be expected.
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ed-people.html

    Originally posted by Center for Disease Control
    • Available evidence suggests the currently approved or authorized COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective against hospitalization and death for a variety of strains, including Alpha (B.1.1.7), Beta (B.1.351), Gamma (P.1), and Delta (B.1.617.2); data suggest lower effectiveness against confirmed infection and symptomatic disease caused by the Beta, Gamma, and Delta variants compared with the ancestral strain and Alpha variant. Ongoing monitoring of vaccine effectiveness against variants is needed.
    Originally posted by Center for Disease Control
    Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed.

    Comment


      Probably because most folks are concerned about being hooked up to a ventilator and/or dying more so that getting a bad cold that keeps them home a couple days which is what the news has mostly focused on.
      Baseball is life;
      the rest is just details.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
        Probably because most folks are concerned about being hooked up to a ventilator and/or dying more so that getting a bad cold that keeps them home a couple days which is what the news has mostly focused on.
        Well, the point I'm trying to make going all the way back to the start of this discussion is that maybe before castigating half the country and wishing eternal damnation on them, we should have some evidence that their choice truly impacts the protection from the virus that others around them have. Also, if that evidence exists, tout the eff out of it to try and encourage the unvaxxed half of the country to do the right thing.

        For those willing to go to the lengths that they don't care about the deaths and condemnation of the unvaxxed' souls, them not getting vaccinated is a good thing. If the vaxx reduces transmissibility, and those that don't get the vax suffer higher death rates, then your wishes will be granted in the end.

        Comment


          Originally posted by False1 View Post
          Well, the point I'm trying to make going all the way back to the start of this discussion is that maybe before castigating half the country and wishing eternal damnation on them, we should have some evidence that their choice truly impacts the protection from the virus that others around them have. Also, if that evidence exists, tout the eff out of it to try and encourage the unvaxxed half of the country to do the right thing.

          For those willing to go to the lengths that they don't care about the deaths and condemnation of the unvaxxed' souls, them not getting vaccinated is a good thing. If the vaxx reduces transmissibility, and those that don't get the vax suffer higher death rates, then your wishes will be granted in the end.
          Nonsense. What we know about the vaccine is more than sufficient to state with absolute certainty that being vaccinated is good for everyone for a plethora of reasons. Claiming that the CDC not attaching an exact number on transmissibility when vaccinated is somehow meaningful is anti-vaxxer bs. This is a new disease. There is still more to learn and will be for some time. Anti-vaxxers do not have any legitimacy and your continued desire to give it to them is offensive to me.

          Comment


            The functionality (or lack of) on this site has made having a conversation nearly impossible.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Texsahara View Post

              Nonsense. What we know about the vaccine is more than sufficient to state with absolute certainty that being vaccinated is good for everyone for a plethora of reasons. Claiming that the CDC not attaching an exact number on transmissibility when vaccinated is somehow meaningful is anti-vaxxer bs. This is a new disease. There is still more to learn and will be for some time. Anti-vaxxers do not have any legitimacy and your continued desire to give it to them is offensive to me.
              Thank you, this isn't a "both sides issue".

              And yes agree the site has been terrible all week.
              Baseball is life;
              the rest is just details.

              Comment


                Got my booster today. Mix-and-match.
                History is our lessons to learn good things to do and bad things to not do.
                - MTG

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Texsahara View Post

                  Nonsense. What we know about the vaccine is more than sufficient to state with absolute certainty that being vaccinated is good for everyone for a plethora of reasons. Claiming that the CDC not attaching an exact number on transmissibility when vaccinated is somehow meaningful is anti-vaxxer bs. This is a new disease. There is still more to learn and will be for some time. Anti-vaxxers do not have any legitimacy and your continued desire to give it to them is offensive to me.
                  I imagine it's also impossible to put a number on that in the real world.

                  Let's also stop saying that half the country feels this way. Almost 70% of adults are fully vaccinated in the U.S. That number is way too low, but it's a better reflection of where we are than the total population, many of whom can't yet be vaccinated.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Texsahara View Post

                    Nonsense. What we know about the vaccine is more than sufficient to state with absolute certainty that being vaccinated is good for everyone for a plethora of reasons. Claiming that the CDC not attaching an exact number on transmissibility when vaccinated is somehow meaningful is anti-vaxxer bs. This is a new disease. There is still more to learn and will be for some time. Anti-vaxxers do not have any legitimacy and your continued desire to give it to them is offensive to me.
                    What we know is that those that take one of the vaccines have much lower hospitalization rates after reinfection that the unvaxxed. By a large margin. We also know that those that take one of the vaccines have a much lower rate of death after reinfection than the unvaxxed. By a large margin.

                    Those should be reasons enough for anyone to get one of the vaccines. They cleary, empirically reduce the risk to the individual of severe suffering or even death and reduce stress on our healthcare system.

                    I'm not anti-vaxx at all, and there's no need to call my questions nonsense or BS. I actually want the data on this facet of vaccination because if truly effective it only makes the case stronger for vaccination. What I object to, on this topic or any other, is when people spout opinions or hopes as facts and use them to bludgeon others.

                    I've asked those here that are literally wishing that 47% of their neighbors would go to hell if they would point me to this data. I've looked for it. I haven't found it, and apparently no one here has either, including those with some really dark thoughts on this topic. I'd think maybe a little effort and some basis of fact would go into that much hatred of half the world.

                    What is nonsense is you saying that the two most authoritative sources being strangely ambiguous on this topic doesn't mean anything.

                    This isn't about "both sides" YT. It can be simultaneously true that EVERYONE should get the vaccine because it has been proven to reduce the risk of hospitalization and death, and that the vaccine doesn't reduce the risk of infection and transmission materially compared to natural immunity or even social distancing or other tactics. I'm disappointed in people that don't value themselves enough to get vaccinated if possible, but I'm also disheartened by this type of mentality that we're seeing here and more broadly in society. While I'm surprised that there is no intellectual curiosity on this specific point, I know I'm in the minority on that. So be it. I can't control if my curiosity offends you.

                    But if you gave me the choice of being six feet apart right now from someone who has natural immunity and has been socially distant versus someone who has been vaccinated but goes to packed bars and clubs nightly and touches everything they see and bites their fingernails before washing their hands, I'll make the unpopular choice because based on the evidence we have I think the risk to me of getting infected is lower. If and when the CDC, WHO or any other trusted source does the work to show that infection and transmission rates are lower, which I have to presume they've been studying from the jump, I will immediately change my POV. I hope the data plays out this way.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by YFIB View Post

                      I imagine it's also impossible to put a number on that in the real world.

                      Let's also stop saying that half the country feels this way. Almost 70% of adults are fully vaccinated in the U.S. That number is way too low, but it's a better reflection of where we are than the total population, many of whom can't yet be vaccinated.
                      It's not impossible in the least.

                      Maybe I'm getting my data from the wrong source, but I'd think cdc.gov would be a current and trustworthy place to go for metrics. As of right now, they are showing 57.2% of US citizens fully vaccinated.

                      https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...min-rate-total

                      Do you have a source that you feel is more current and accurate than the CDC?

                      EDIT: Oh, I see. You're referring to adults specifically. That doesn't seem to be the right baseline though in this discussion, unless you're saying people under 18 cannot be infected and transmit the disease.

                      Comment


                        During the pandemic when we had lockdowns and more mandates the non-maskers said it was harming the economy and we couldn’t let the cure be worse than the disease. Now the anti maskers have morphed into anti-vaxxers and their actions ironically is now holding the economy back

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by False1 View Post
                          What we know is that those that take one of the vaccines have much lower hospitalization rates after reinfection that the unvaxxed. By a large margin. We also know that those that take one of the vaccines have a much lower rate of death after reinfection than the unvaxxed. By a large margin.

                          Those should be reasons enough for anyone to get one of the vaccines. They cleary, empirically reduce the risk to the individual of severe suffering or even death and reduce stress on our healthcare system.

                          I'm not anti-vaxx at all, and there's no need to call my questions nonsense or BS. I actually want the data on this facet of vaccination because if truly effective it only makes the case stronger for vaccination. What I object to, on this topic or any other, is when people spout opinions or hopes as facts and use them to bludgeon others.

                          I've asked those here that are literally wishing that 47% of their neighbors would go to hell if they would point me to this data. I've looked for it. I haven't found it, and apparently no one here has either, including those with some really dark thoughts on this topic. I'd think maybe a little effort and some basis of fact would go into that much hatred of half the world.

                          What is nonsense is you saying that the two most authoritative sources being strangely ambiguous on this topic doesn't mean anything.

                          This isn't about "both sides" YT. It can be simultaneously true that EVERYONE should get the vaccine because it has been proven to reduce the risk of hospitalization and death, and that the vaccine doesn't reduce the risk of infection and transmission materially compared to natural immunity or even social distancing or other tactics. I'm disappointed in people that don't value themselves enough to get vaccinated if possible, but I'm also disheartened by this type of mentality that we're seeing here and more broadly in society. While I'm surprised that there is no intellectual curiosity on this specific point, I know I'm in the minority on that. So be it. I can't control if my curiosity offends you.

                          But if you gave me the choice of being six feet apart right now from someone who has natural immunity and has been socially distant versus someone who has been vaccinated but goes to packed bars and clubs nightly and touches everything they see and bites their fingernails before washing their hands, I'll make the unpopular choice because based on the evidence we have I think the risk to me of getting infected is lower. If and when the CDC, WHO or any other trusted source does the work to show that infection and transmission rates are lower, which I have to presume they've been studying from the jump, I will immediately change my POV. I hope the data plays out this way.
                          It's not your faux intellectual curiosity that is offensive. It's your defense of anti-vaxxers and no matter how much you want to contort yourself to deny it, that is exactly what you're doing.

                          There is nothing ambiguous about this. They are operating in a way completely consistent with the scientific process. Something you don't seem to have much of an understanding of. Read more.

                          Comment


                            Faux intellectual curiosity? Poor False1. He made the mistake of trying to have an intelligent data driven conversation with people that want anything but.
                            Calmer than you are

                            7/30/2017: The day the Minnesota Twins bought a prospect from the New York Yankees.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by JL25and3 View Post
                              Got my booster today. Mix-and-match.
                              I wish I'd waited for the mix and match. I just went ahead with Pfizer a few weeks ago because my job makes my highly susceptible, and I needed to be boosted. 😂
                              "Our work continues, the fight goes on, and the big dreams never die." -- Elizabeth Warren

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by jlw1980 View Post

                                I wish I'd waited for the mix and match. I just went ahead with Pfizer a few weeks ago because my job makes my highly susceptible, and I needed to be boosted. 😂
                                You still need to be boosted. You need something, anyway.
                                History is our lessons to learn good things to do and bad things to not do.
                                - MTG

                                Comment

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