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    Originally posted by False1 View Post
    Sure. I'm just saying my POV is that you can certainly drag Cashman for his shoddy history of developing/acquiring TOR SPs. But I'm not going to kill him for Cole. Manfred owns that mess.
    When you put yourself in a position of having to sign a player, regardless of red flags, with no other options or bargaining power, that's your own fault. He didn't have a "pass, too much obvious risk" option.

    It was a very foreseeable risk.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

    Comment


      Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

      When you put yourself in a position of having to sign a player, regardless of red flags, with no other options or bargaining power, that's your own fault. He didn't have a "pass, too much obvious risk" option.

      It was a very foreseeable risk.
      And maybe not spend all this money if Cashman and his staff could actually develop an ace pitcher in house. Which has so far not happened for the entire 24 years he has been the GM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

        When you put yourself in a position of having to sign a player, regardless of red flags, with no other options or bargaining power, that's your own fault. He didn't have a "pass, too much obvious risk" option.

        It was a very foreseeable risk.
        I hear what you're saying, and I'm not trying to defend Cashman or change your mind really. But this seems like a bit of double jeopardy. Yes - he has failed to staff elite SPs. Poor drafts, passing on good options in FAs, failed trades, a whole bunch of things go into that.

        Then an elite FA SP was available on the market. He paid the market price. Yes, there was risk. There always is with these deals. But a) I think that risk is attributable to Manfred's mismanagement both in tacitly permitting this behavior and then suddenly mid-season reversing course and b) we're assuming that Cole will never pitch up to expectation. He still may, whether that's because there is a legal substitute or he adapts.

        Comment


          Originally posted by ymike673 View Post

          And maybe not spend all this money if Cashman and his staff could actually develop an ace pitcher in house. Which has so far not happened for the entire 24 years he has been the GM.
          Have they even developed a middle of the rotation pitcher? Montgomery maybe?
          "Leave it to Yankees fans to be upset at having too many great players.”—Hitman23

          Comment


            Originally posted by effdamets View Post

            Have they even developed a middle of the rotation pitcher? Montgomery maybe?
            A couple who flamed out with injury (Wang, Severino). Ivan Nova had 2 decent years. Ted Lilly was starting to come into his own when Cashman traded him for Jeff Weaver. And Montgomery. That's about it.

            24 years.

            I hid in the clouded wrath of the crowd, when they said "sit down" I stood up.

            Comment


              Originally posted by HelloNewman View Post
              A couple who flamed out with injury (Wang, Severino). Ivan Nova had 2 decent years. Ted Lilly was starting to come into his own when Cashman traded him for Jeff Weaver. And Montgomery. That's about it.

              24 years.
              Yet the Dodgers seem to have no issues in this department despite being in the same "low draft position" category often as well.

              Comment


                Originally posted by effdamets View Post

                Have they even developed a middle of the rotation pitcher? Montgomery maybe?
                Focusing on the here and now, we have:

                Severino, Cortes, Montgomery, and German as homegrown "established" SPs with real accomplishments at the major league level.

                We have King, Loaisiga, Gil, Clarke Schmidt, Abreu, Deivi Garcia, Medina, Wesneski, Waldichuk, and maybe Gomez as homegrown prospects projected to be ready in 2022.

                That's 4 very good, established, homegrown guys and 10 SP prospects that are projected to be ready in 2022. Now, no pitcher is a guarantee to avoid injury risk or performance risk. Thus, the 4 "established " folks may not all do well. Also, most of the 10 others won't make it as a starter (and some like Loaisiga, Abreu, and maybe King probably won't get a real shot given their success in the bullpen and the lack of need in the starting rotation).

                But, from my vantage point, we have quite the plethora of cost controlled, homegrown SP candidates right now. I think this has been a big area of improvement in recent years, which is a very encouraging harbinger for the future.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by HelloNewman View Post
                  A couple who flamed out with injury (Wang, Severino). Ivan Nova had 2 decent years. Ted Lilly was starting to come into his own when Cashman traded him for Jeff Weaver. And Montgomery. That's about it.

                  24 years.
                  You have just about named all of them. Really liked Wang but probably a #2 starter. Jury still out on Severino.

                  Comment


                    Please don't rank Cortes as "established." He's made 16 MLB starts. Severino is broken until proven otherwise and German has managed league-average pitching 1 time in 3 seasons.
                    I hid in the clouded wrath of the crowd, when they said "sit down" I stood up.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by ymike673 View Post

                      You have just about named all of them. Really liked Wang but probably a #2 starter. Jury still out on Severino.
                      They had a second shot at Lilly, who I always liked as a 3/4 type, when he was a FA after the 2006 season. But Cashman never made much of a move, if any. After all, he had just reeled in Kei Igawa, and was confident -- does this sound familiar? -- that he'd get a full season of starts out of Carl Pavano.

                      I hid in the clouded wrath of the crowd, when they said "sit down" I stood up.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Strategerie View Post

                        Focusing on the here and now, we have:

                        Severino, Cortes, Montgomery, and German as homegrown "established" SPs with real accomplishments at the major league level.

                        We have King, Loaisiga, Gil, Clarke Schmidt, Abreu, Deivi Garcia, Medina, Wesneski, Waldichuk, and maybe Gomez as homegrown prospects projected to be ready in 2022.

                        That's 4 very good, established, homegrown guys and 10 SP prospects that are projected to be ready in 2022. Now, no pitcher is a guarantee to avoid injury risk or performance risk. Thus, the 4 "established " folks may not all do well. Also, most of the 10 others won't make it as a starter (and some like Loaisiga, Abreu, and maybe King probably won't get a real shot given their success in the bullpen and the lack of need in the starting rotation).

                        But, from my vantage point, we have quite the plethora of cost controlled, homegrown SP candidates right now. I think this has been a big area of improvement in recent years, which is a very encouraging harbinger for the future.
                        just seeing Abreu and Deivi names as good is what some are saying. I was and still a fan of Deivi and saw him as a Pedro who I always liked even if he was BOS. But I read an article many months ago (I am not going to find it but you can look at his numbers) how we are changing his technique. (I think Not another pitch but a pitch he had). I still feel he can be good but this year he did NOT get improve. I do like Matt Blake but don't know his involvement on AAA level. My point is we do screw up our prospects and they never get a decent chance. I used to go to AA to watch Abreu. He may be the most talented of all and out of options?. I checked Brooks and unfortunately not follow Deivi,

                        (post season game maybe with Happ?) I still think about starting Deivi as opener and taking him out when he was in a grove and putting in Happ.

                        We need #2 SP.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Strategerie View Post

                          Focusing on the here and now, we have:

                          Severino, Cortes, Montgomery, and German as homegrown "established" SPs with real accomplishments at the major league level.

                          We have King, Loaisiga, Gil, Clarke Schmidt, Abreu, Deivi Garcia, Medina, Wesneski, Waldichuk, and maybe Gomez as homegrown prospects projected to be ready in 2022.

                          That's 4 very good, established, homegrown guys and 10 SP prospects that are projected to be ready in 2022. Now, no pitcher is a guarantee to avoid injury risk or performance risk. Thus, the 4 "established " folks may not all do well. Also, most of the 10 others won't make it as a starter (and some like Loaisiga, Abreu, and maybe King probably won't get a real shot given their success in the bullpen and the lack of need in the starting rotation).

                          But, from my vantage point, we have quite the plethora of cost controlled, homegrown SP candidates right now. I think this has been a big area of improvement in recent years, which is a very encouraging harbinger for the future.
                          WIth all due respect, I think you are defending the indefensible, Cashman's greatest sin in not developing or trading for a consequential staff.
                          Pitchers I want are the ones that shut down the other team's offense and are not finesse.

                          I'll give you Sevvy who sadly has been injury prone but at his best is a beast on the mound, doesnt need perfect control, and basically says hre is my fastball, now go hit it.
                          I'll also give you Cole though it was a nobrainer signing him and the sticky issue may have been hidden and/or unanticipated.

                          Actually, one more, sadly again, he pitches for the Red Sox and is overpowering a la Sevvy and Cole. Nathan Evo, is his name. Cash gave up on him. Boston took him and now he throws 99 mph against up LOL Love it.

                          For all we know about the others, we dont know much.
                          Monty needs perfect control to not get hit hard. He's not pitching for me in a playoff game. Good offensive teams like the Sox or Astros will make him throw strikes.
                          Cortes is a reliever who they were forced to start. IF we evaluate him as a mid reliever then cool. Not a starter. Oh, Boston may be starting an ace relierver next year that was in the bullpen this year. Oh whoops, Whitlock was also a gift from Cashman to the Sox. The commish has to investigate collusion between Cash and the Sox organization.

                          So we've give 3/5 of a rotation to the Sox. Nice.

                          Most of the others in that list above are big question marks. Quanitity over unproven quality doesnt impress me.

                          Rant over, other to say We got 1 proven high end starter and a lot of stuff to go with Cole. Not much IMO of a staff.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by HelloNewman View Post
                            Please don't rank Cortes as "established." He's made 16 MLB starts. Severino is broken until proven otherwise and German has managed league-average pitching 1 time in 3 seasons.
                            Yes. Right now we really can't depend on anything from Cortes, Severino and German for next season. And Taillon coming off ankle surgery.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by ymike673 View Post

                              Yes. Right now we really can't depend on anything from Cortes, Severino and German for next season. And Taillon coming off ankle surgery.
                              You can depend on them to be back of the rotation starters which they are.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by hhill View Post

                                WIth all due respect, I think you are defending the indefensible, Cashman's greatest sin in not developing or trading for a consequential staff.
                                Pitchers I want are the ones that shut down the other team's offense and are not finesse.

                                I'll give you Sevvy who sadly has been injury prone but at his best is a beast on the mound, doesnt need perfect control, and basically says hre is my fastball, now go hit it.
                                I'll also give you Cole though it was a nobrainer signing him and the sticky issue may have been hidden and/or unanticipated.

                                Actually, one more, sadly again, he pitches for the Red Sox and is overpowering a la Sevvy and Cole. Nathan Evo, is his name. Cash gave up on him. Boston took him and now he throws 99 mph against up LOL Love it.

                                For all we know about the others, we dont know much.
                                Monty needs perfect control to not get hit hard. He's not pitching for me in a playoff game. Good offensive teams like the Sox or Astros will make him throw strikes.
                                Cortes is a reliever who they were forced to start. IF we evaluate him as a mid reliever then cool. Not a starter. Oh, Boston may be starting an ace relierver next year that was in the bullpen this year. Oh whoops, Whitlock was also a gift from Cashman to the Sox. The commish has to investigate collusion between Cash and the Sox organization.

                                So we've give 3/5 of a rotation to the Sox. Nice.

                                Most of the others in that list above are big question marks. Quanitity over unproven quality doesnt impress me.

                                Rant over, other to say We got 1 proven high end starter and a lot of stuff to go with Cole. Not much IMO of a staff.
                                There are always questions marks with starting pitching. It's a high volatility position (particularly due to injury risk). That "not much ... of a staff" basically led the AL in ERA. I think that's pretty good.

                                Comment

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