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**ThePinStripes** · 10-26-21, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by sjb23 View Post

I have a "big market" point of view, but IMO this is what's wrong with MLB - there's no reason why such a storied franchise can't get a ballpark built, or spend $150M on payroll, or lock up a stud like this long term and make him a building block for the next 5 years.

And folks think Yankee ownership doesn't spend money ?

There needs to be a LT floor put in place. I think there are about 8 teams or so (what is that, 25-30% ?) that didn't even spend $100M, some of them with lots of success (i.e.Rays). If the Rays increased their payroll by 30% maybe they get past the Red Sox?

IMO the floor should be $100M - if a club doesn't spend $100M they put money into the kitty, just like the clubs that exceed the ceiling.

They need a floor and a lotto system for the draft like the NBA to discourage tanking.

**Portbb** · 10-26-21, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by sjb23 View Post

I have a "big market" point of view, but IMO this is what's wrong with MLB - there's no reason why such a storied franchise can't get a ballpark built, or spend $150M on payroll, or lock up a stud like this long term and make him a building block for the next 5 years.

And folks think Yankee ownership doesn't spend money ?

There needs to be a LT floor put in place. I think there are about 8 teams or so (what is that, 25-30% ?) that didn't even spend $100M, some of them with lots of success (i.e.Rays). If the Rays increased their payroll by 30% maybe they get past the Red Sox?

IMO the floor should be $100M - if a club doesn't spend $100M they put money into the kitty, just like the clubs that exceed the ceiling.

Articles have been written about $100m being the payroll floor for the new CBA, funded in part by a lower payroll for the luxury tax. Should be more interesting off-season for rules than for FA signings. If the NL adopts the DH that should help the defensively challenged players hang on in the MLB as well, still being able to collect a paycheck with diminished skills.

**ppa79** · 10-26-21, 08:29 AM

I would be suprised if players agreed to lower the luxury tax threshold.

**matt2351** · 10-26-21, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Paul Zuvella View Post

I understand Cole getting pissed, some people take themselves way too seriously, he happens to be one of those people.I just dont really care. Im pissed he scammed us into paying him 300 million+. Im sure he doesnt care that im mad either.
If you lied your way to your position as an engineer or misrepresented yourself to get a higher salary, if one of your co-workers broke your chops about it, Im sure it would piss you off. That doesnt mean you didnt deserve to be poked fun at.

He didn't scam "us." His use of performance enhancing foreign substance duped Cashman. Sounds like you might want to direct that anger towards the person whose job it is to vet these things.

**Portbb** · 10-26-21, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by ppa79 View Post

I would be suprised if players agreed to lower the luxury tax threshold.

They might agree to keep it at $210 mil in order to get a payroll floor of $100 mil which would increase payroll for 8 clubs. Or lower slightly to $200 or $205m.

**matt2351** · 10-26-21, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

What did I miss here?

edit: Lol, wow. That's not good fun. He definitely saw Cole's (horrific) interviews about the issue. He's obviously struggling. How on earth was that supposed to be funny, in gest or even light hearted? That's a straight up attack and insult.

Cole's awful season was still immensely more productive than Gardner's season, and he didn't take Voit out of the line up on top of it. I guess sucking on the field and keeping the reigning HR champ on the bench wasn't quite enough for Gardner.

I am still trying to understand why people are defending Gardner. I am struggling to see how what he did is justifiable beyond the old school view that everything goes in a locker room. I can tell you that I have been in locker rooms (as recently as 10 years ago) and I and teammates called others out for crossing certain lines. People used to just accept all sorts of nonsense in these spaces and like other environments (offices, etc), cultures have changed and these things are no longer permissible. I think it is a good thing because the ways in which folks used to get treated was just not OK.

**sjb23** · 10-26-21, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Portbb View Post

They might agree to keep it at $210 mil in order to get a payroll floor of $100 mil which would increase payroll for 8 clubs. Or lower slightly to $200 or $205m.

Yeah, this is where I'm at. This could be a pretty robust signing period - but this HAS to be agreed upon before anything will happen, that's my guess.

**matt2351** · 10-26-21, 09:12 AM

Also, folks were asking yesterday about what Gardner had done to Wade. Here is an interview with Clint Frazier where Frazier details some of it. I find it really disturbing that everyone in the interview is laughing about it, but this is the culture we are dealing with. These are just some of the "fun" pranks that Gardner performs. Keep in mind that Frazier is describing the behavior of a then 36- or 37-year-old man in this interview and not an 18-year-old college kid.

**Portbb** · 10-26-21, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by sjb23 View Post

Yeah, this is where I'm at. This could be a pretty robust signing period - but this HAS to be agreed upon before anything will happen, that's my guess.

You’re right. This CBA is crucial. Maybe clubs try to sign players before December 2 when it expires. Or players try to sign for as much as possible before then so they don’t get offered less after that date by the clubs newly hit by luxury tax.

**Chaz** · 10-26-21, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by matt2351 View Post

Since we are talking about soccer, how about Napoli being tied for the league lead in Serie A?

Amazing, particularly since Juve is already 10 points back.

**ymike673** · 10-26-21, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by matt2351 View Post

He didn't scam "us." His use of performance enhancing foreign substance duped Cashman. Sounds like you might want to direct that anger towards the person whose job it is to vet these things.

100% correct. I am sure it was common knowledge that Cole was using that stuff. Cashman just ignored it probably thinking nothing would change. Such a great GM.

**effdamets** · 10-26-21, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by matt2351 View Post

Also, folks were asking yesterday about what Gardner had done to Wade. Here is an interview with Clint Frazier where Frazier details some of it. I find it really disturbing that everyone in the interview is laughing about it, but this is the culture we are dealing with. These are just some of the "fun" pranks that Gardner performs. Keep in mind that Frazier is describing the behavior of a then 36- or 37-year-old man in this interview and not an 18-year-old college kid.

I can see validity in most of these points of view.
However, one factor we don't hear/read about is that these players don't live in a "regular person's" reality.
How many of us have a servant doing our laundry? A chef preparing our meals? A handler carrying our luggage on vacation? Even packing for us!
It's a very different world in that clubhouse. Much different than any of us are remotely used to.
Maybe Cole goes around that clubhouse complaining out loud about the sticky restrictions. We don't know. That certainly hasn't been reported.
Did Cole ever pull Gardner aside and in private, ask him to cool it? Or did he just whine out loud so everyone could hear it?
So much information that we don't know.

Cole's use of spider tack should have been in the forefront of Cashman's research.
No one, and I mean no one, can change teams and basically double their spin rates. Unless they're using something.
And it wasn't only Cole. Verlander should have been the 5 alarm fire!
He changed teams at what, 34 year old? And went from a 1.279 WHIP to a .647 WHIP? Really? Was he bathing in the fountain of youth all of a sudden?

Anyway - If Cole doesn't want to be burned, he shouldn't have played with the fire.
And Gardner should have realized that any ball busting on the subject was not going to reflect well on him or the team.

**Bauer** · 10-26-21, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by matt2351 View Post

Also, folks were asking yesterday about what Gardner had done to Wade. Here is an interview with Clint Frazier where Frazier details some of it. I find it really disturbing that everyone in the interview is laughing about it, but this is the culture we are dealing with. These are just some of the "fun" pranks that Gardner performs. Keep in mind that Frazier is describing the behavior of a then 36- or 37-year-old man in this interview and not an 18-year-old college kid.

Jerk interviewers, jerk player calling in, jerk player whose dumb pranks they're all talking about and laughing about.

**matt2351** · 10-26-21, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by effdamets View Post

I can see validity in most of these points of view.
However, one factor we don't hear/read about is that these players don't live in a "regular person's" reality.
How many of us have a servant doing our laundry? A chef preparing our meals? A handler carrying our luggage on vacation? Even packing for us!
It's a very different world in that clubhouse. Much different than any of us are remotely used to.
Maybe Cole goes around that clubhouse complaining out loud about the sticky restrictions. We don't know. That certainly hasn't been reported.
Did Cole ever pull Gardner aside and in private, ask him to cool it? Or did he just whine out loud so everyone could hear it?
So much information that we don't know.

Cole's use of spider tack should have been in the forefront of Cashman's research.
No one, and I mean no one, can change teams and basically double their spin rates. Unless they're using something.
And it wasn't only Cole. Verlander should have been the 5 alarm fire!
He changed teams at what, 34 year old? And went from a 1.279 WHIP to a .647 WHIP? Really? Was he bathing in the fountain of youth all of a sudden?

Anyway - If Cole doesn't want to be burned, he shouldn't have played with the fire.
And Gardner should have realized that any ball busting on the subject was not going to reflect well on him or the team.

If I, in any way, came across as being OK with Cole's whinging about not being able to use an illegal substance, I have miscommunication. His indignation about not being permitted to cheat is something with which I am totally not OK. What I am also not OK with is Gardener mocking his teammate because he was using it - especially when contextualized within the larger narrative about Gardner's treatment of other players. I don't tend to judge folks on singular incidents (unless they are egregious), but when there is a pattern of behavior, I think it becomes fair game for discussion.

I 100% agree that Cashman should have known something was amiss.

**matt2351** · 10-26-21, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Bauer View Post

Jerk interviewers, jerk player calling in, jerk player whose dumb pranks they're all talking about and laughing about.

That interview is actually really good primary source material on how toxic the culture is and how much work needs to done.

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