2021-2022 Off Season Thread

[primetime714]

100% correct. I am sure it was common knowledge that Cole was using that stuff. Cashman just ignored it probably thinking nothing would change. Such a great GM.

We all knew about it here, it would be shocking if it wasn't accounted for in their evaluation of him. Which means they have to feel confident he's a top tier pitcher regardless of substances. Either that or they totally underestimated a reactive commissioner that gives no real second thought to changing the game on a whim.

I may be wrong, but I still like Cole as a top tier pitcher going forward. His intelligence, determination and physical abilities are rivaled by few pitchers in the game. He'll do what he has to be great, including taking advantage of trends, advantages and other oversights in the game. Hard for him to adjust mid-season given how poorly the rule change was managed and he actually did a decent job of adapting pre-injury considering everything.

[Mixwell]

Problem is, Oakland isn't a true major league market. Ever been there? It makes Cleveland look glamourous.
That franchise should be moved to Las Vegas or Montreal.

Despite their financial limitations, the A's still spend a much larger percentage of their profits on payroll than the Yankees do.

I have a somewhat different take on the % of revenue thing. It doesn't bother me at all how much the Yankees spend on player payroll. They are always going to be in the top 5, and frankly I don't blame them for not going over the threshold. Can they afford to? Probably at times, but any money spent on luxury tax is 100% wasted. No return whatsoever on that.

The bigger problem to me is that the percentage tells us that they are in fact, not cheap at all - because they have a high player payroll AND massive expenditures elsewhere. Some of those expenses include the analytics staff, the scouting, drafting and minor league development. But for all that cash spent in those areas, they are horrific in every single one of those departments. Tampa and Oakland not only spend less on player payroll, but they also draft and develop young players at a MUCH higher success rate for a fraction of the cost.

This is Cashman's biggest failure. It's not just the botched major league roster assembly - it's the fact that they can't feed the pipeline into it effectively and therefore have to rely on free agency and trades at virtually every position on the roster. The guys they do bring up are one-dimensional, lack basic baseball fundamentals, or flame out quickly.

[effdamets]

I have a somewhat different take on the % of revenue thing. It doesn't bother me at all how much the Yankees spend on player payroll. They are always going to be in the top 5, and frankly I don't blame them for not going over the threshold. Can they afford to? Probably at times, but any money spent on luxury tax is 100% wasted. No return whatsoever on that.

The bigger problem to me is that the percentage tells us that they are in fact, not cheap at all - because they have a high player payroll AND massive expenditures elsewhere. Some of those expenses include the analytics staff, the scouting, drafting and minor league development. But for all that cash spent in those areas, they are horrific in every single one of those departments. Tampa and Oakland not only spend less on player payroll, but they also draft and develop young players at a MUCH higher success rate for a fraction of the cost.

This is Cashman's biggest failure. It's not just the botched major league roster assembly - it's the fact that they can't feed the pipeline into it effectively and therefore have to rely on free agency and trades at virtually every position on the roster. The guys they do bring up are one-dimensional, lack basic baseball fundamentals, or flame out quickly.

One factor - Tampa & Oakland pick much more towards the top of the draft than the Yankees ever do.
Now - that being said. Cashman is still horrific at any of the areas you've pointed out. Maybe the worst in the majors, if you ask me.
But, as much as I dislike defending anything Cashman does, it is a bit easier to hit on a player drafted in the top 5 rather than one that is drafted in the bottom 5.

I'm just hoping that Cashman gets caught in some scandal that forces him to relinquish his position.
He lives near me. I should spy on him..... (kidding everyone - please don't take that seriously)

[ymike673]

One factor - Tampa & Oakland pick much more towards the top of the draft than the Yankees ever do.
Now - that being said. Cashman is still horrific at any of the areas you've pointed out. Maybe the worst in the majors, if you ask me.
But, as much as I dislike defending anything Cashman does, it is a bit easier to hit on a player drafted in the top 5 rather than one that is drafted in the bottom 5.

I'm just hoping that Cashman gets caught in some scandal that forces him to relinquish his position.
He lives near me. I should spy on him..... (kidding everyone - please don't take that seriously)

I get tired of hearing how other teams pick ahead of the Yankees and that's why they can build better teams. That's only true for the first round. Plenty of very good players come out of the second and third round. All available to the Yankees when ever their first round pick comes out.

[ymike673]

We all knew about it here, it would be shocking if it wasn't accounted for in their evaluation of him. Which means they have to feel confident he's a top tier pitcher regardless of substances. Either that or they totally underestimated a reactive commissioner that gives no real second thought to changing the game on a whim.

I may be wrong, but I still like Cole as a top tier pitcher going forward. His intelligence, determination and physical abilities are rivaled by few pitchers in the game. He'll do what he has to be great, including taking advantage of trends, advantages and other oversights in the game. Hard for him to adjust mid-season given how poorly the rule change was managed and he actually did a decent job of adapting pre-injury considering everything.

I think Cole will be close to his old self next season after an off season to adapt to the new rules. Unfortunately we have a commissioner that thinks nothing about changing the rules in mid season. Which I believe was never the case with past commissioners. Rules should only be changed in the off season.

[Portbb]

I get tired of hearing how other teams pick ahead of the Yankees and that's why they can build better teams. That's only true for the first round. Plenty of very good players come out of the second and third round. All available to the Yankees when ever their first round pick comes out.

As an example of the Yankees first round picks- 2015 the Yankees picked before the Dodgers. The Yankees picked Kaprielian (who I think will have a good career) and the Dodgers picked Walker Buehler. They also passed on Austin Riley. A 24 yr old league minimum 3rd baseman playing in the WS and all signs point to him being a star.

And in 2014 the Yankees picked Jacob Lindgren a couple of slots before the Dodgers chose Alex Verdugo. To be fair that was in the second round so a lot of other teams could have chosen Verdugo.

[False1]

What did I miss here?

edit: Lol, wow. That's not good fun. He definitely saw Cole's (horrific) interviews about the issue. He's obviously struggling. How on earth was that supposed to be funny, in gest or even light hearted? That's a straight up attack and insult.

Cole's awful season was still immensely more productive than Gardner's season, and he didn't take Voit out of the line up on top of it. I guess sucking on the field and keeping the reigning HR champ on the bench wasn't quite enough for Gardner.

It's so tone deaf you have to wonder if Gardner WAS actually attacking Cole based on his past appearances against the Yankees as an Astro. I mean, what is the expected outcome of that prank? I think it was nearly 100% predictable that Cole would be offended. I respect that he had the character to apologize for his reaction after he cooled down, because I don't see how an apology was necessary.

[ojo]

You're absolutely right he shouldn't have to apologize for that (and for the record, if this was a late 90s Yankee team, Gardner would've been deposited in a laundry bin by a veteran like Paul O'Neill). I think Cole took the high road there to quell any animosity.

[False1]

The Yankees aren't one or even two big players from being a world series contender. They need a TOR pitcher, CF, 1B, SS, Closer and Catcher. They need to fill at least 3 of those positions with "good" (even if not elite) players to have any chance next year. Otherwise, it will just be a repeat of the trade deadline this year. Just enough to be relevant- not enough to do anything meaningful.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

I think the delta between last year's SS production and a Correa or Seager is so massive that if they were to splurge it was be a game changer. If they also dipped into their farm to acquire an Olson (hopefully with Gleyber being moved to get some value out of him while they still can), you have taken two positions that were complete liabilities and transformed them into differentiators against the rest of the league. Clearly, CF was a problem. But they theoretically could solve for that if they played Stanton regularly in the OF, which would also free up DH for Voit. And if you acquire those two aforementioned players and change the Stanton philosophy, you could also probably acquire a defense-first catcher at a reasonable cost.

I am less concerned about a #2 and closer. I'd love to see those upgraded, and ideally they would be (particularly the rotation, as I think they're stuck with Chapman). But they have some good depth in terms of arms and Blake/Cressey seem to have made a difference. Just have to hope that Cole and Chapman can get an approved substance that addresses whatever they lost due to the spider tack ban.

TL;DR: I agree that all those positions ideally would be updated, but think one or two big players radically changes the complexion of the lineup and their odds of a WS championship in '22.

[False1]

100% correct. I am sure it was common knowledge that Cole was using that stuff. Cashman just ignored it probably thinking nothing would change. Such a great GM.

I've gotten on Cashman for a lot lately, but I'm not going to necessarily get on him for this.

Baseball ignored this issue. It was way out in the open, much like steroids were at one point. MLB needs to be FAR less whimsical about what they care about and when they care about it.

No way of knowing that MLB would crackdown on this known issue, seemed like a lot of batters made public comments that they knew about it but were ok with it because they didn't want pitches sailing up around their craniums. Bauer openly mocked MLB, saying if the league wasn't going to do anything about it he was going to start doing it... and did just that, to the tune of a deal earning $45MM in a season. The fact that MLB decided in the middle of this season that a) they were going to start enforcing something like this and b) they were going to do it in the manner they did it with embarrassing scenes between pitchers and umpires being common place, is a testament more to the instability of league leadership than it is something to use as a stick against a GM(s).

We would have rightfully KILLED Cashman if he hadn't outbid the rest of the planet for Cole.

[False1]

I have a somewhat different take on the % of revenue thing. It doesn't bother me at all how much the Yankees spend on player payroll. They are always going to be in the top 5, and frankly I don't blame them for not going over the threshold. Can they afford to? Probably at times, but any money spent on luxury tax is 100% wasted. No return whatsoever on that.

The bigger problem to me is that the percentage tells us that they are in fact, not cheap at all - because they have a high player payroll AND massive expenditures elsewhere. Some of those expenses include the analytics staff, the scouting, drafting and minor league development. But for all that cash spent in those areas, they are horrific in every single one of those departments. Tampa and Oakland not only spend less on player payroll, but they also draft and develop young players at a MUCH higher success rate for a fraction of the cost.

This is Cashman's biggest failure. It's not just the botched major league roster assembly - it's the fact that they can't feed the pipeline into it effectively and therefore have to rely on free agency and trades at virtually every position on the roster. The guys they do bring up are one-dimensional, lack basic baseball fundamentals, or flame out quickly.

It bothers me. A lot.

Have you seen these massive expenditures broken out? If so, I'd love to see them.

I've seen where the Yankees employ ~20 analysts. Even if the average payroll of each is $1MM (which would shock me), that's $20MM. My guess is it is <$10MM in cost.

They have minor league development costs but those teams are also assets that generate revenue.

These expenses seem highly improbable to change the fact that the investment in on-the-field product for the Yankees is the lowest in the game even after netting total revenue and total expenses.

[Mixwell]

My understanding is that the ML team doesn't keep the MiL revenue

[JLJ81]

I'm not sure I agree with that.

I think the delta between last year's SS production and a Correa or Seager is so massive that if they were to splurge it was be a game changer. If they also dipped into their farm to acquire an Olson (hopefully with Gleyber being moved to get some value out of him while they still can), you have taken two positions that were complete liabilities and transformed them into differentiators against the rest of the league. Clearly, CF was a problem. But they theoretically could solve for that if they played Stanton regularly in the OF, which would also free up DH for Voit. And if you acquire those two aforementioned players and change the Stanton philosophy, you could also probably acquire a defense-first catcher at a reasonable cost.

I am less concerned about a #2 and closer. I'd love to see those upgraded, and ideally they would be (particularly the rotation, as I think they're stuck with Chapman). But they have some good depth in terms of arms and Blake/Cressey seem to have made a difference. Just have to hope that Cole and Chapman can get an approved substance that addresses whatever they lost due to the spider tack ban.

TL;DR: I agree that all those positions ideally would be updated, but think one or two big players radically changes the complexion of the lineup and their odds of a WS championship in '22.

Signing Correa or Seager to 250-350 million scares me. Both have missed significant time because of injuries. Correa had a back injury that kept him out quite a bit in 2018 and 2019. One article I read said the guy had to lay down in the aisle of the plane during a 2 hour flight from Houston to Tampa because of his back. In 2 of the last 3 full seasons Seager has played less than 100 games.

[Mott the Hoople]

Bobby Dalbec makes league minimum and they probably aren’t interested in Rizzo.

Boston has also got highly-rated 1B prospect Tristan Casas knocking on the door, so, they're highly unlikely to be looking to give Rizzo the long-term deal he'll inevitably be seeking.

[ymike673]

As an example of the Yankees first round picks- 2015 the Yankees picked before the Dodgers. The Yankees picked Kaprielian (who I think will have a good career) and the Dodgers picked Walker Buehler. They also passed on Austin Riley. A 24 yr old league minimum 3rd baseman playing in the WS and all signs point to him being a star.

And in 2014 the Yankees picked Jacob Lindgren a couple of slots before the Dodgers chose Alex Verdugo. To be fair that was in the second round so a lot of other teams could have chosen Verdugo.

This is my point. Yankees might miss out on the top first round picks but they sure miss a lot of good players that are available for them to draft.

[Zimmer's Helmet]

I get tired of hearing how other teams pick ahead of the Yankees and that's why they can build better teams. That's only true for the first round. Plenty of very good players come out of the second and third round. All available to the Yankees when ever their first round pick comes out.

The Dodgers typically draft towards the bottom of the first round yet it hasn’t prevented them from developing one of the most productive farm systems in the game.

[Mixwell]

I get tired of hearing how other teams pick ahead of the Yankees and that's why they can build better teams. That's only true for the first round. Plenty of very good players come out of the second and third round. All available to the Yankees when ever their first round pick comes out.

It's also not true. The Yankees have picked ahead of the Rays in Round 1 and have come up empty. And subsequent rounds as well.