2021-2022 Off Season Thread

[hhill]

There are always questions marks with starting pitching. It's a high volatility position (particularly due to injury risk). That "not much ... of a staff" basically led the AL in ERA. I think that's pretty good.

1-Of course there are always questions with a rotation but you want to start with proven commodities and then deal with future events. All we have to start with that is proven is Cole. Everyone else is unproven over the past few years. So we're starting with a weak hand not a strong one. Not good.

2-Re ERA, what was the ERA of the staff in big games or the past 3 weeks of the season, or the last weekend of the season? Cole, just 1 example, didnt get past the 3rd inning. What's with that? Granted we had a lot of offensive problems but the more I watch these playoffs the more shutdown pitching wins most of the time. I repeat why did we let go of Evo ...couldnt wait for him to recover? Many many bad moves with pitchers or lack of development.

3-Look at Tampa bringing up pitchers throwing 98 mph with different arm angles and compare to us. Which of our pitchers fit that?

Sorry, I think you itemized a bagful of unproven arms. Sadly , more is not merrier in this case

[hhill]

You can depend on them to be back of the rotation starters which they are.

Exactly, back of the rotation that you cannot count on in big games.

[ThePinStripes]

I hear what you're saying, and I'm not trying to defend Cashman or change your mind really. But this seems like a bit of double jeopardy. Yes - he has failed to staff elite SPs. Poor drafts, passing on good options in FAs, failed trades, a whole bunch of things go into that.

Then an elite FA SP was available on the market. He paid the market price. Yes, there was risk. There always is with these deals. But a) I think that risk is attributable to Manfred's mismanagement both in tacitly permitting this behavior and then suddenly mid-season reversing course and b) we're assuming that Cole will never pitch up to expectation. He still may, whether that's because there is a legal substitute or he adapts.

I'm not sure it was market price, but we will never know. I agree Cashman had to sign Cole, regardless of risk. He cornered himself playing 4d chess.

[HelloNewman]

There are always questions marks with starting pitching. It's a high volatility position (particularly due to injury risk). That "not much ... of a staff" basically led the AL in ERA. I think that's pretty good.

It's not unprecedented to be able to weld together a high ranking team ERA for a year or two on the basis of one big ace pitcher and a bunch of odds and ends (1999-2000 Red Sox) but it's not a strategy you want to lean on for years. The Sox didn't win until they got Schilling to pair with Martinez.

The sunshine scenario is predicated on the wishcast that a GM who is historically bad at developing starting pitching (the fossil evidence was produced upthread) has somehow transmogrified into an expert in the field a quarter century into his tenure. Presented as evidence are 1) a 29-year-old who has been in aggregate a below league average pitcher over three years; 2) a pitcher who as of opening day will not have pitched extensively in the majors in four years; and 3) a guy with 16 career starts who appeared at or near the top of nobody's prospect list, ever.

I'm going to hold with the skeptics for now.

[AussieYank]

Actually, one more, sadly again, he pitches for the Red Sox and is overpowering a la Sevvy and Cole. Nathan Evo, is his name. Cash gave up on him. Boston took him and now he throws 99 mph against up LOL Love it.

Just to set the record straight on Eovaldi, he was released by the Yankees in 2016, and then signed by the Rays in 2017. He only started pitching mid-way through 2018 and then was traded by the Rays to Boston. The rest is history.

[ClownPickle]

I love having Cole. Think it was a great signing, and one Hal took over.

The sticky stuff thing impacted a lot of guys. Especially guys who throw up in the zone with their fastballs. I'm not concerned long term. He's the pitchers representative. They'll get a substance that is standardized across the league in this next CBA.

[NelsonMuntz]

I love having Cole. Think it was a great signing, and one Hal took over.

The sticky stuff thing impacted a lot of guys. Especially guys who throw up in the zone with their fastballs. I'm not concerned long term. He's the pitchers representative. They'll get a substance that is standardized across the league in this next CBA.

Agree with this.

[ymike673]

Just to set the record straight on Eovaldi, he was released by the Yankees in 2016, and then signed by the Rays in 2017. He only started pitching mid-way through 2018 and then was traded by the Rays to Boston. The rest is history.

This is correct. But i thought the Yankees should have kept Eovaldi since pitchers can come back very successfully from TJ surgery. Since the Yankees draft pitchers who just had the surgery I thought holding on to Nathan might have been a good thing.

[primetime714]

I love having Cole. Think it was a great signing, and one Hal took over.

The sticky stuff thing impacted a lot of guys. Especially guys who throw up in the zone with their fastballs. I'm not concerned long term. He's the pitchers representative. They'll get a substance that is standardized across the league in this next CBA.

Agree, when the Yankees spend on the best players good things usually happen and Cole will adjust as needed he’s too talented and too competitive not to figure out something with whatever substance they allow and he’ll probably be ahead of the pack on the next competitive advantage.

Need to put together a better supporting cast though. Before Cole they had everything except a pitcher like Cole, with Cole they’re missing other key pieces.

[bucky]

(want to have some fun next year) I wish we keep Kahnle with a 2 yr contract. Another TJS , not a starter and RHP, but I always felt he was part of the core coming out of the pen, He is coming back next year for LAD. It's no fun seeing Eovaldi pitch well but interesting to follow Kahnle. LAD is paying him 3.7M this year to pitch (I like him so am happy for him) Like Eovaldi we had some good times.

[ClownPickle]

Agree with this.

Agree, when the Yankees spend on the best players good things usually happen and Cole will adjust as needed he’s too talented and too competitive not to figure out something with whatever substance they allow and he’ll probably be ahead of the pack on the next competitive advantage.

Need to put together a better supporting cast though. Before Cole they had everything except a pitcher like Cole, with Cole they’re missing other key pieces.

And I'll also add this WHOLE thing is on Manfred. You don't start enforcing a rule that has never been enforced midseason. Not allowing pitchers to train without it AND not offering any legal alternative.

If you want to make drastic changes to the ways guys pitch, do it at an appropriate time. The offseason.

[Portbb]

This is correct. But i thought the Yankees should have kept Eovaldi since pitchers can come back very successfully from TJ surgery. Since the Yankees draft pitchers who just had the surgery I thought holding on to Nathan might have been a good thing.

Another pitcher to watch is Kaprielian. He had more strikeouts than innings pitched. 119 innings pitched this season. He could probably be stretched to 160 or so next year.

It does require patience with TJS. Not easy being patient.

[sjb23]

This is correct. But i thought the Yankees should have kept Eovaldi since pitchers can come back very successfully from TJ surgery. Since the Yankees draft pitchers who just had the surgery I thought holding on to Nathan might have been a good thing.

Eovaldi was very disappointing in 2016 with the Yanks, his 2nd season with them. He only made 21 starts and threw 125 innings, and only made it thru the 5th inning 10 times. He pitched to an ERA of almost 5 (unacceptable, IMO) & his WHIP was always pretty high. He had a low strikeout rate and a high BB rate, and I remember him throwing a very straight, hittable FB with very little movement but good velocity. I don't remember him having a good secondary pitch at the time either. I remember always being frustrated at his inconsistency. On top of that, he was getting expensive and IIRC was going to have his 2nd TJS that offseason and would be out for 2017 and then hit free agency (please correct me if I'm wrong). History shows that not too many pitchers successfully come back after a second TJS either. I remember having no problem losing him at the time, along with Pineda.

IMO releasing him was totally the right thing to do at the time, but I can see how now someone would 2nd-guess that decision.

[matt2351]

It's not unprecedented to be able to weld together a high ranking team ERA for a year or two on the basis of one big ace pitcher and a bunch of odds and ends (1999-2000 Red Sox) but it's not a strategy you want to lean on for years. The Sox didn't win until they got Schilling to pair with Martinez.

The sunshine scenario is predicated on the wishcast that a GM who is historically bad at developing starting pitching (the fossil evidence was produced upthread) has somehow transmogrified into an expert in the field a quarter century into his tenure. Presented as evidence are 1) a 29-year-old who has been in aggregate a below league average pitcher over three years; 2) a pitcher who as of opening day will not have pitched extensively in the majors in four years; and 3) a guy with 16 career starts who appeared at or near the top of nobody's prospect list, ever.

I'm going to hold with the skeptics for now.

Spot on assessment. Extra points for working "transmogrified" into a critique of Cashman.

[jnewmark]

Tanaka again ? From MLBTR : " For a less-obvious but still familiar option, a reunion with Masahiro Tanaka also can’t be ruled out. After signing with the Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles last winter, Tanaka hinted at a potential return to both MLB and to the Yankees specifically, so it wouldn’t be a shock to see Tanaka back in the pinstripes now that the Yankees have more flexibility under the luxury tax threshold."