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    #2596
    Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

    ... 2021 was definitely after he went to the Astros.
    But had sticky stuff taken away mid year?

    Comment

      #2597
      Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

      That's a lot to give up for upgraded defense.
      Olsen is more or less a comparable hitter to Voit with much better defense.
      If Voit is in the deal, giving up Peraza (no idea who that is), Deivi, wells and another player is a LOT to improve defense.

      This is the problem. It's a big trade that makes a lot of noise, but it doesn't improve the team all that much. They're better on defense and the farm becomes more barren.


      4yr OPS+:
      Voit 136
      Olson: 132
      I don’t think anyone believes Voit can stay on the field all year

      Comment

        #2598
        Originally posted by philleotardo View Post

        I don’t think anyone believes Voit can stay on the field all year
        Voit is also under team control a year longer than Olson, so that should be factored in as well. They'll probably be healthy the same number of games, haha.
        Q: Who’s the guy on your roster that would have been overlooked if not for analytics? Cashman: Ronald Torreyes. He’s an analytical darling.

        Comment

          #2599
          I'd do Voit for Olson every day of the week. The rest of the package is expendable. Pretty fair deal IMO.

          One weakness corrected. Two, actually. Maybe even three lol.

          Better contact hitter/less Ks
          Better fielder
          Lefty bat

          Oh, and maybe healthier.
          "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

          Comment

            #2600
            I’d prefer it not be Pereira

            Comment

              #2601
              Originally posted by philleotardo View Post

              But had sticky stuff taken away mid year?
              Yes. Are you referring to 2021? Because that definitely happened. He literally cried about it on TV.
              Cole didn't have sticky stuff in the second half of 2021 and he was not good, at all. Mid 4's ERA IIRC.

              I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

              My point is that Cole suddenly became amazing when he went to the Astros and was introduced to sticky stuff. So him being good after getting to the Astros wouldn't be inconsistent with my position.






              Originally posted by ClownPickle View Post
              Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

              I wouldn't go near Verlander. You're not convincing me he didn't rely on sticky stuff.
              Magic uptick in movement and spin rate.
              Houston- cheaters generally.
              Cole was on it there.
              Every pitcher around him was incredible, from thin air except maybe ZG.

              The last thing this team needs is another performance/sticky stuff question mark compiled with a huge injury risk and age related decline risk and just performance drop from not pitching a whole season.

              Verlander and Thor are who you (as a large market team) gamble with when you have a stable rotation. Or at least a true TOR and #2 pitcher.
              If he works out, it's great. If he doesn't, you still have a very competitive team.
              You dont gamble on these guys to make the playoffs.

              1. Cole was still REALLY good without sticky stuff.
              2. Guarantee in this next CBA they'll have a standardized substance for pitchers to use for grip.
              Q: Who’s the guy on your roster that would have been overlooked if not for analytics? Cashman: Ronald Torreyes. He’s an analytical darling.

              Comment

                #2602
                Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

                That's a lot to give up for upgraded defense.
                Olsen is more or less a comparable hitter to Voit with much better defense.
                If Voit is in the deal, giving up Peraza (no idea who that is), Deivi, wells and another player is a LOT to improve defense.

                This is the problem. It's a big trade that makes a lot of noise, but it doesn't improve the team all that much. They're better on defense and the farm becomes more barren.


                4yr OPS+:
                Voit 136
                Olson: 132
                Well, you're getting a guy who had played more than 100 games over the past 3 seasons, the gap is even larger if you include 2018. He's also a left-handed hitter that breaks up the righties and is 3 years younger than voit - so he probably hasn't reached the ceiling of his potential, especially if you're putting him in between two guys like Judge and Stanton, imagine the pitches he'll see.

                The defense is a massive upgrade in my opinion. DJ won two of his 5 gold gloves with Tex, being able to pick the ball consistently definitely helped.

                Comment

                  #2603
                  Olson's WAR of 5.3 compared to Voit's 0.3.

                  Comment

                    #2604
                    Originally posted by ClownPickle View Post

                    The ban though was more about guys using spider tack and super glueing their fingers to the ball. That's what led to the ban. Not just using normal-ish stuff. So they just banned everything.

                    I don't know for sure, but I'd say judging by the stuff Cole has said, he was using more of the normal stuff side. They'll standardize that in the next CBA.
                    If he wasn't using spider tack, he would have said so. He was using it and the stuff from the angels clubhouse attendant.

                    Comment

                      #2605
                      Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post

                      That's a lot to give up for upgraded defense.
                      Olsen is more or less a comparable hitter to Voit with much better defense.
                      If Voit is in the deal, giving up Peraza (no idea who that is), Deivi, wells and another player is a LOT to improve defense.

                      This is the problem. It's a big trade that makes a lot of noise, but it doesn't improve the team all that much. They're better on defense and the farm becomes more barren.


                      4yr OPS+:
                      Voit 136
                      Olson: 132
                      I'm a huge Voit fanboi. Love his bat. Hate that his own GM undervalues him and sabotaged him publicly for some reason. But Olson is the much better player. He's an elite fielder and hitter and balances the lineup. I think he will rake in YS with the shorter porch and the narrower foul territory. Voit has never played more than 118 games, and that year he played the last few months hurt. He's also really a DH only on a team that stubbornly insists on forcing an OF into the DH spot.

                      Would it shock me if Voit puts up offense roughly on par with Olson? No. His bat is legit. But the bottom line is Cashman has cut him off like bad cheese, so if he's going to go and be sold low at least he's part of a package for an elite talent in his prime like Olson.

                      Comment

                        #2606
                        You make that trade every day of the week. Voit is not a positive for this team when you have to hide as many players as the Yankees have to in the DH spot. Olson is exactly what this team needs.
                        “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

                        Comment

                          #2607
                          Originally posted by sjb23 View Post
                          I'd do Voit for Olson every day of the week. The rest of the package is expendable. Pretty fair deal IMO.

                          One weakness corrected. Two, actually. Maybe even three lol.

                          Better contact hitter/less Ks
                          Better fielder
                          Lefty bat

                          Oh, and maybe healthier.
                          I disagree with expendable. That rumored deal is a borderline overpay in aggregate, and that's BEFORE we know who the OF is. If it's Pereira, they're paying a huge price for Olson.

                          Comment

                            #2608
                            Originally posted by TexasYank23 View Post

                            Well, you're getting a guy who had played more than 100 games over the past 3 seasons, the gap is even larger if you include 2018. He's also a left-handed hitter that breaks up the righties and is 3 years younger than voit - so he probably hasn't reached the ceiling of his potential, especially if you're putting him in between two guys like Judge and Stanton, imagine the pitches he'll see.

                            The defense is a massive upgrade in my opinion. DJ won two of his 5 gold gloves with Tex, being able to pick the ball consistently definitely helped.

                            DJ has 3 GG and he's never played for Texas. All three GG's he won were with different starting 1B (Justin Morneau, Mark Reynolds and Ian Desmond), and he was at 2B. Not exactly a long throw. None of those 1B ever won a GG.
                            Q: Who’s the guy on your roster that would have been overlooked if not for analytics? Cashman: Ronald Torreyes. He’s an analytical darling.

                            Comment

                              #2609
                              Originally posted by sd. View Post

                              If he wasn't using spider tack, he would have said so. He was using it and the stuff from the angels clubhouse attendant.
                              He made it pretty clear in that interview he thinks that there are things out of bounds. He wasn't using those things. Those are the things MLB wants to ban.

                              The stuff from the angels clubhouse attendant wasn't spider tack: "Two weeks later, Harkins mailed Cole a made-to-order canister with more pine tar and less Mota stick than usual."

                              Comment

                                #2610
                                Originally posted by ThePinStripes View Post


                                DJ has 3 GG and he's never played for Texas. All three GG's he won were with different starting 1B (Justin Morneau, Mark Reynolds and Ian Desmond), and he was at 2B. Not exactly a long throw. None of those 1B ever won a GG.
                                I thought he meant DJL initially too and was about to type something similar, but think he meant Jeter. Although, Jeter shouldn't have won those GG in spite of Tex picking throws. His point is fair though that the upgrade in defense would not be trivial.

                                Comment

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