2021-2022 Off Season Thread

[hhill]

OK, I will call Chris MCgonnagle at 2AM on his next show and tell him YES, we are ready for a couple of down years.

The problem , I think, is that the bean counters wont tolerate empty corporate seats!

[sd.]

POLL QUESTION
If you want to tear it down and rebuild i.e. trade Judge etc would you be willing to live with 2-3 100 loss seasons?
That's what the Astros had to endure.
Boston also finished last here or there.

Now, I wouldnt with Cashman at the helm but let's leave that out of consideration and assume it would be someone acceptable

The problem, as I see it, is their current situation. They are not an elite team and the things they need to improve, they can't do.

On offense, they need upgrades at 1b (only because they refuse to stick with Voit while he is cheap), SS, C, and CF but they don't have any in house MLB ready prospects to take over and they don't have the payroll flexibility to buy their way into upgrading those positions. And those aren't positions you want to throw large money at. Those are defensive heavy positions that typically have a short shelf life.

The other givens on offense are Judge, Stanton, DJLM, Gleyber, and Gio. All of them also have huge health or performance questions associated with them going into 2022. Their biggest rebound candidates (Frazier and Gallo) share the same corner OF positions of their two best hitters.

Pitching you have Cole post sticky stuff, Sevy who hasn't been healthy in years, Monty who is a solid mid rotation starter, Taillon who wasn't good and is injured again, Nestor who looks to be all smoke and mirrors, and....a minor league system of struggling question marks.

The pen is in decent shape but their is far too much money tied up in it and the good guys are the cheap guys..

So rolling out the same team, unless literally everything breaks their way and they get all bounce back performances to their 2019 levels, no down years, and no injuries they are very unlikely to be an elite team in 2022.

Not to mention, guys are in their arbitration years/approaching free agency so just continuing to roll our the same team may be too expensive for them. Its hard to see a path to returning to an elite team in the next year or two anyway AND if you are looking a multiple seasons to retool, at that point Cole, Judge, Stanton, DJLM will all be in their decline years.

So yeah, if you could unload a Cole, Stanton (when the DH first gets implemented), DJLM, Chapman, and sure, even a Judge (if you can get a great return), maybe you should do it. Hell the first 4 I'd give away for almost nothing than to not have their contracts. If that means having a short down period Iike the Red Sox have had here and there and a new GM that is better. Yeah, that 100% looks like our best chance to return to an elite team to me.

[newhampfan]

It's time to get over it. The Yankees had their share of cheaters. Clemens, Pettite and Arod. Are we gonna take away those world series because of that?

The MLB investigated the Yankees for cheating but won't release those findings. Something is fishy there. If the Yankees were clean the findings should say so.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure Houston under Dusty Baker hasn't cheated this year. Even Cora has gone out of his way to warn Red Sox pitchers not to use the sticky substance. Whining about the past doesn't get us anywhere, I mean, for years other teams used to accuse the Yanks of cheating via their vast financial resources. More recently, A-Rod cheated w/ steroids but was chiefly responsible for our winning our last World Series (and Gardner, who never cheats--who would believe it?--wasn't responsible for that, though he's kept by Cashman as if he were the last link to that victory). I'd root for the Braves over Houston, but Houston over the Dodgers.

[Zimmer's Helmet]

It's time to get over it. The Yankees had their share of cheaters. Clemens, Pettite and Arod. Are we gonna take away those world series because of that?

The MLB investigated the Yankees for cheating but won't release those findings. Something is fishy there. If the Yankees were clean the findings should say so.

Thank you. Cheating has been part of the game since day 1.
Doesn’t make it right. Whether it’s doctored baseballs, sign stealing or PEDs. And yes, the Yankees are as guilty as anyone.

[Yankees1962]

I could never root for the Dodgers because they broke my family's collective heart by moving to LA. I might have been a Dodger fan if they didn't move to LA,, but they were gone when I started take interest in baseball during the 1961 season and with my memory of my first Yankee Stadium visit in 1962.

[bomb]

Sign Correa/Seager
Sign Rizzo/Freeman/Belt
Trade multiple pieces for Jose Ramirez (Torres/SS Prospect/Garcia)
Trade for a new C. Sanchez has to be off this team.
Have Gallo Play CF, Bat him no higher than 7th


DJ
Correa/Seager
Judge
Ramirez
Stanton
Rizzo/Freeman/Belt
Gallo
New C
New OFer/Hicks/Gardner

[JLJ81]

POLL QUESTION
If you want to tear it down and rebuild i.e. trade Judge etc would you be willing to live with 2-3 100 loss seasons?
That's what the Astros had to endure.
Boston also finished last here or there.

Now, I wouldnt with Cashman at the helm but let's leave that out of consideration and assume it would be someone acceptable

Everyone loves this narrative about how they tanked to do it but it is far more than that. Their previous owner left the farm system totally barren. He didn't even sign several draft picks. One year because of compensation picks for signing Carlos Lee and Woody Williams they didn't get a pick in the 1st or 2nd round and failed to sign their 3rd and 4th rounders. That's worse than their cheating scandal punishment and accomplished by poor management. Tanking wasn't really a choice. They were in the midst of a TV network nightmare that went bankrupt because they never got deals with Directv or Dish, and they had no farm system. They didn't have the money to support a big payroll.

Then one of their 1-1 picks in Mark Appel was a total bust. They also totally lucked out when they drafted Brady Aiken 1-1 and didn't sign him because of bad medicals. They received the 2nd pick the next year as compensation and that turned into Alex Bregman. 3 picks later they drafted Kyle Tucker. Brady Aiken is out of baseball.

Overall they are just better at talent evaluation and development. They fleeced the Dodgers for Alvarez. Even without high picks they find really good players and that is why they were in their 5th ALCS in a row without Keuchel, Cole, Morton, Springer, Osuna, and having 33 million of dead money this season with Justin Verlander out. Luis Garcia, Jose Urquidy, Cristian Javier, and Framber Valdez were acquired via the international system. Tanking had nothing to do with finding that talent, and that is 4/5ths of a legit rotation all acquired in 2015 or later which is AFTER they started winning. Also, they give their catcher a lot of credit in the development of those pitchers. Cora was also giving him a lot of credit for changing things up to turn the series around. They realize how important Maldonado is behind the plate and they are willing to have an offensive hole in their lineup because of it. He also made the play of the game with his arm when he got Verdugo trying to steal on an inning ending strikeout/throwout double play with runners on 1st and 3rd. Meanwhile the Yankees are probably hurting the development of their young arms by continuing to have Gary behind the plate.

Lance McCullers was the 41st pick. Yankees selected Ty Hensley with the 30th pick that year. Altuve was an international signing for 10 grand. Every team could have had him. Ryne Stanek was non-tendered by the Marlins and picked up for 1.1 million last offseason. He was essentially their 8th inning guy until they traded for Graveman. Stanek has been fantastic in the playoffs with a 1.35 ERA and .60 WHIP in 8 appearances. Did anyone here even know who Phil Maton was? They traded Myles Straw for him and Maton has a 1.45 ERA and .45 WHIP in 7 appearances in the playoffs. In that trade they also got a minor league catcher named Yainer Diaz. In 25 games for the Astros high A team he had a .396 AVG, 11 HRs, and a 1.219 OPS. Who knows if he will be a stud but that's on top of getting Maton who dominated in the playoffs thus far and has 2 more years of arbitration left.

And they were able to trade Straw who was their starting CFer because they bring up Chas McCormick and Jake Meyers out of nowhere. Meyers was their best hitter in the minors this season. He was also a rule 5 eligible player last year. Anyone could have had him. As a rookie Meyers put up 1.1 WAR in 45 games. If you extrapolate that out.... you know how many position players the Yankees had that were 3.3 WAR players or greater on the season? One that was a Yankee the whole year... Aaron Judge at 5.5 WAR. Joe Gallo was a 3.5 WAR but only 0.3 WAR in 58 games as a Yankee. Rizzo put up 0.7 WAR in 48 games as a Yankee. The only other Yankees with a WAR greater than 3.3 were Cole at 5.3 and Montgomery at 3.3.

[Chaz]

Great post.

[ThePinStripes]

Yankee rebuilding seasons should be resetting the luxury tax, not tanking. There is no reason they need to field 100 loss teams for 3 years to be competitive.

[False1]

Yanks have always been interested in Ray..Cashman gets his man eventually.

This would be so typical.

I was ridiculed a bit here and in other Yankee fan discussions for wanting to trade for Ray or get him on the cheap prior to this season. Stuff has always been there. Wanted to see if Blake could get out of him what the Jays tapped into last season, where there was a huge value play available.

Signing him to a massive deal after this season would be dicey to say the least. They missed their opportunity, and unless they're thinking a $275MM+ payroll, they have much greater FA needs elsewhere on the roster.

[ymike673]

Everyone loves this narrative about how they tanked to do it but it is far more than that. Their previous owner left the farm system totally barren. He didn't even sign several draft picks. One year because of compensation picks for signing Carlos Lee and Woody Williams they didn't get a pick in the 1st or 2nd round and failed to sign their 3rd and 4th rounders. That's worse than their cheating scandal punishment and accomplished by poor management. Tanking wasn't really a choice. They were in the midst of a TV network nightmare that went bankrupt because they never got deals with Directv or Dish, and they had no farm system. They didn't have the money to support a big payroll.

Then one of their 1-1 picks in Mark Appel was a total bust. They also totally lucked out when they drafted Brady Aiken 1-1 and didn't sign him because of bad medicals. They received the 2nd pick the next year as compensation and that turned into Alex Bregman. 3 picks later they drafted Kyle Tucker. Brady Aiken is out of baseball.

Overall they are just better at talent evaluation and development. They fleeced the Dodgers for Alvarez. Even without high picks they find really good players and that is why they were in their 5th ALCS in a row without Keuchel, Cole, Morton, Springer, Osuna, and having 33 million of dead money this season with Justin Verlander out. Luis Garcia, Jose Urquidy, Cristian Javier, and Framber Valdez were acquired via the international system. Tanking had nothing to do with finding that talent, and that is 4/5ths of a legit rotation all acquired in 2015 or later which is AFTER they started winning. Also, they give their catcher a lot of credit in the development of those pitchers. Cora was also giving him a lot of credit for changing things up to turn the series around. They realize how important Maldonado is behind the plate and they are willing to have an offensive hole in their lineup because of it. He also made the play of the game with his arm when he got Verdugo trying to steal on an inning ending strikeout/throwout double play with runners on 1st and 3rd. Meanwhile the Yankees are probably hurting the development of their young arms by continuing to have Gary behind the plate.

Lance McCullers was the 41st pick. Yankees selected Ty Hensley with the 30th pick that year. Altuve was an international signing for 10 grand. Every team could have had him. Ryne Stanek was non-tendered by the Marlins and picked up for 1.1 million last offseason. He was essentially their 8th inning guy until they traded for Graveman. Stanek has been fantastic in the playoffs with a 1.35 ERA and .60 WHIP in 8 appearances. Did anyone here even know who Phil Maton was? They traded Myles Straw for him and Maton has a 1.45 ERA and .45 WHIP in 7 appearances in the playoffs. In that trade they also got a minor league catcher named Yainer Diaz. In 25 games for the Astros high A team he had a .396 AVG, 11 HRs, and a 1.219 OPS. Who knows if he will be a stud but that's on top of getting Maton who dominated in the playoffs thus far and has 2 more years of arbitration left.

And they were able to trade Straw who was their starting CFer because they bring up Chas McCormick and Jake Meyers out of nowhere. Meyers was their best hitter in the minors this season. He was also a rule 5 eligible player last year. Anyone could have had him. As a rookie Meyers put up 1.1 WAR in 45 games. If you extrapolate that out.... you know how many position players the Yankees had that were 3.3 WAR players or greater on the season? One that was a Yankee the whole year... Aaron Judge at 5.5 WAR. Joe Gallo was a 3.5 WAR but only 0.3 WAR in 58 games as a Yankee. Rizzo put up 0.7 WAR in 48 games as a Yankee. The only other Yankees with a WAR greater than 3.3 were Cole at 5.3 and Montgomery at 3.3.

Very true. The Astros did tank for a few years to start the turnaround but most of their current team was acquired after they became a good team.

[False1]

Yankee rebuilding seasons should be resetting the luxury tax, not tanking. There is no reason they need to field 100 loss teams for 3 years to be competitive.

Agreed. That is what is going to annoy me about this offseason if they don't push hard. They passed up on opportunities that could have materially improved their odds since 2017 when the window was open, all to get to this moment of resetting the tax. They have made trades with financial considerations to get to this point, including each trade they made last year requiring that 100% of the 2021 salaries be carried by the player's former team (has that EVER happened before for a contending team??).

Now they're here. The timing is perfect because there are young, elite FA at critical positions available. The roster still has enough talent within it where if they add truly elite pieces they can take a legit swing this year and next at a minimum. The alternative is you waste two years of Judge and Cole (and a few others to a lesser degree) and if you refuse to rebuild I shudder to think what this lineup will look like in two years.

But hey, at least Hal will be able to divide up a few extra million from the bottom line from this franchise that already prints money. Meanwhile, fans start making Steinbrenner and Cashman voodoo dolls.

[Yankyfan]

I would if we are spending for FA's Go after Thor and Ray and skip the SS . Just me...

[ThePinStripes]

I would if we are spending for FA's Go after Thor and Ray and skip the SS . Just me...

This rotation doesn't need another high ceiling, injury reclamation project.

[Portbb]

Yankee rebuilding seasons should be resetting the luxury tax, not tanking. There is no reason they need to field 100 loss teams for 3 years to be competitive.

With the Collective Bargaining Agreement ending in December 2021 I thought the luxury tax for 2022 is an unknown? Could be lower or higher.

[Yankyfan]

This rotation doesn't need another high ceiling, injury reclamation project.

I disagree..I wouldn't spend big but if we do go pitching,